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The Supreme Court's historic gun case

Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:52 AM by Barbara Raab

By Pete Williams, NBC News Justice correspondent

Not once in the history of the United States has the Supreme Court ever said what the Second Amendment means. That surprising fact is one reason why the case the justices are hearing today is likely to produce the most important ruling ever on gun rights.

The amendment itself is just 27 words long, interrupted three times by the punctuation fashionable at the time of the nation's founding: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Image: Handguns.To Dick Heller of Washington, DC, who wants to keep a handgun at home for personal protection, the words guarantee a personal, individual right to own a gun. His lawyers argue that the key phrase is "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms." The amendment's first words, dealing with a well regulated militia, state only one of many purposes for establishing that right, they argue, and do not limit its protections.

Heller sued after the city denied his application for a handgun permit. And though a trial judge ruled against him, finding as virtually every other court has that the Second Amendment's guarantee is limited to purposes of militias, the federal appeals court in Washington ruled 2-1 in his favor and struck down the city's handgun ban, the nation's strictest gun control law.

But the city of Washington argues that the first part of the amendment states the founders' only purpose, to protect the states from having their militias disarmed by a hostile and distant federal government.

"The amendment does not encompass having a gun for personal purposes," says Walter Dellinger, who represents the city. For that reason, the city says it did not violate the Constitution when it banned handguns in 1976, after concluding that existing laws did not adequately reduce gun violence.

The two sides each claim to find support in the history of the Bill of Rights and the writings of the founders. The city argues that the word "arms" means weapons and that the phrase "bear arms" refers to using them in a military context. "One does not bear arms against a rabbit or an intruder," Washington's legal brief argues.

But Heller's lawyers claim that the phrase was not solely a military one and that state constitutions drafted in the late 1700's guaranteed a right of citizens to "bear arms" in self defense. Besides, they say, militias were ad hoc, come-as-you-are organizations that had no central weapons stock. "In order for people to act as militias, they had to have their own weapons that they bring with them," says Alan Gura, arguing the case for Heller.

(FILES) This29 October 2006 file photo sThe legal showdown has generated intense interest. From Congress, 229 Republicans and 66 Democrats filed a brief supporting Heller. Vice President Dick Cheney took the highly unusual step of signing on in his capacity as President of the Senate. That put him at odds with the Bush Administration's formal position filed by the Justice Department, which argues that the amendment provides an individual right. But the government claims that the appeals court ruling is so sweeping that, if upheld, it could jeopardize federal gun laws.

A ruling that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to gun ownership, say gun control advocates, would instantly launch new challenges to gun restrictions nationwide. Heller's lawyer, Alan Gura, believes the impact would be more modest.

"Commonsense laws banning felons from owning guns or requiring background checks would be allowed. But it would take prohibition off the table," he says.

A contrary ruling, that gun ownership is constitutionally protected only for service in militias, would give state and local governments more authority to regulate firearm ownership, though many state constitutions would limit such restrictions.

"It would leave to the democratic process in each city and state to decide what level of regulation to have on guns," says Walter Dellinger, the city's lawyer.

A decision is expected by late June, but it's difficult to handicap how the court may rule, since the justices have never confronted the issue directly. The court's only relevant gun control case, in 1939, upheld a federal ban on sawed-off shotguns, but it did not squarely address what the Second Amendment means.

Editor's note: Pete Williams' report aired Tuesday on NBC Nightly News. Click here to watch.

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Washington DC already had one run at gun control.  They restricted the militia so much there weren't enough rifles for even half the members.  They weren't even allowed to practice with live ammunition much less have it in their possession.  But that was January 1812.  What could go wrong?
People who believe the second amendment should be repealed would most certainly have sided with the loyalists during the American Revolution - a very violent upheaval.  That's certainly not something people who would take away firearms would support.  So undignified and unsophisticated.  Good Lord, they're even smarter than the Supreme Court - or wouldn't they prefer Parliament?  And why stop at just the Second Amendment when these enlightened individuals could force, er, help us with so many more of our foibles.  Hear, hear!  You just know you can never trust the commoners to make good decisions without the help of the upper class.
People who believe the second amendment should be repealed would most certainly have sided with the loyalists during the American Revolution - a very violent upheaval.  That's certainly not something people who would take away firearms would support.  So undignified and unsophisticated.  Good Lord, they're even smarter than the Supreme Court - or wouldn't they prefer Parliament?  And why stop at just the Second Amendment when these enlightened individuals could force, er, help us with so many more of our foibles.  Hear, hear!  You just know you can never trust the commoners to make good decisions without the help of the upper class.
You know, I know it's hard to look at these things without becoming emotional -- passions run deep on both sides of the issue -- but don't start calling people's patriotism into question just because they don't agree with you.  I'm not interested in forcing the Constitution to suit my personal interests, and I hope the members of the Supreme Court feel likewise.  I'm interested in understanding the original intent authored and in maintaining that intent throughout the dynamics of history.  The second amendment doesn't simply say, "Citizens have the right to bear arms."  Rather, it is framed within circumstances that were valid for the time but that may no longer be valid today.  Since we can't just pick and choose what parts of the amendment we want to uphold, we've got to do something to change it or update it; but in updating it, I think the original intent of the amendment should be maintained.  So then the question become, "What was the original intent of this amendment?"  And that's what I was getting at in my previous writings.
I have an idea. Since guns are evil (not the people who use them), and liberal 'logic?' provides that the fewer of them at large means fewer deaths; let's do a simple test. Let's just ban them outright and across the board, including police and military personnel. 'Logic?' would dictate that in a short period of time, the crime rate would plummit and enrollment in law enforcement and military occupations would sky rocket. Right?
If this country is attacked on the ground it will be the citizens that fight back.  We will all become militia again.  Law abiding citizens need to own weapons for everyones protection.  No one will fight harder that a man or woman trying to protect their family.
I am an American and I believe that the law was written in a different time and it is open to interpratation. I belive that this country has a mentallity of me before all others. I want it I can have it. But has anyone really look at the dangers other than "the criminals and the right to protect onselves". Their are many children injured by guns each year. I'm talking 0-10 year olds getting ahold of a gun, or a child at a firing range who accidently shots his mom while trying to reload. How does that help to protect our country. That child will have issues for life. Most criminals get their guns by stealing them from good people. Just think about that. How would you feel if you gun was stolen and used to kill. If we take the guns out of the home criminals won't have them either.
I applaud the comments and the story. Pete you did well in Casper and you are still doing well. I think one other fact remains that the pro gun control folks have overlooked. With our military streached to the limit in the middle east, just who do they think would join the troops we have left hear at home on the front lines within country if we were to be invaded here at home. I'm a thinking you would see a lot of law abiding gun owners stepping up to help if that were to ever happen. The attack on 911 shows it could happen. With our borders to south basicly wide open it could happen! How many of those folks that have crossed the border illegaly are here for the very reason of attacking from within? I think that we would be better off as a country if every household in America was required to have a firearm. I also think that as free people who want to remain free we should have training in our school systems on how to use a firearm safely, with respect and yes with deadly accuracy! With the type of folks we have running our country now and with the caliber of folks we have to choose from in this next election I'm afraid we the honest gun owners of America may have to step up sooner rather than later.
I live in California. The state of Ca. has severely limited the types of weapons you can buy here. In San Francisco, a law was passed that tried to ban firearms but was thrown out. Has this stopped or slowed down crime. Not in the least.

The constitution is about checks and balances. The legislative, judicial and executive branches are set up so that not one of them can have a monopoly on "power". The second amendment is also a balance of power. Its not the 5th, or 7th, it's the second.

one other thing I'd like to point out is that during the Clinton administration, there were bans on asault weapons and high capacity magazines. This ban on magazines actually effected the armed forces in the fact that there was a shortage of them when we went Iraq the 2nd time. Could you imagine sending our service men and women in harms way without the tools they need?

The second amendment is an individual right that effects the security of our great nation.
Many of the Founding Fathers, when they wrote the Constitution in the halls of Congress, were armed at the time!   Learn history people.

Many of the Founding Fathers, when they wrote the Constitution in the halls of Congress, were armed at the time!   Learn history people.

I read the very first comment by Jackie Rawlins from Riverside California.  Frankly I am afraid of Jackie Rawlins' vote.  It appears to me she is unstable and her vote constitutes a direct threat to the safety of myself and my family and friends.  I honestly believe we should BAN all further votes from Jackie Rawlins.  She is obviously a threat to herself and others and should not be allowed to vote or voice her opinion.
One thing puzzles me, with the increase of criminal activity in Washington, D.C. - Just who is causing this increase, the criminals, or the law abiding citizens? Just who gave the criminal the right to have a gun? Should not the private citizen also have that right?  OOPS!  I forgot, D.C. citizens do not have the right to protect themselves.  Sorry !!
Emma you go a long way in your attempt to unravel a very basic ammendment which was designed by some pretty smart guys for one purpose. . . to protect the individual right to keep (own) and bear (use) firearms.  I think you should also spend some time reading the Federalist papers and other essays on our constitution from that period.  All of the founding fathers can be quoted as supporting the individuals right to own and use firearms as well as reiterating our OBLIGATION to stand up for our freedom that they died for by being ready to stop any tyrannical behavior by ours or any other government.  We are not Europe and we are not Canada.  We are America.  We WILL NOT subjugate ourselves.  The majority of gun owners have the right to keep and bear arms by their lawful acts.  Criminals should be the only ones un armed.  People make fun of our "John Wayne" attitude in America.  In all reality it was that attitude that allowed our earliest countrymen to have the nerve and resolve to expel the British.  Our whole country was built on Revolution and War.  Had we not had firearms in Colonial America, we would most definitely not have the America you see today.  Interpreting the second ammendment any other way is like saying the right to free speech only applies to our country to speak among other countries.  Why would our founding fathers waste a drop of pen ink to protect the rights of our country on paper when they had already done it with a gun and a cannon?  Your arguments are not well informed from the historical or practical perspective.  If you really feel unsafe, move to Canada.  You get free health care there :)
K. Krider, it may suprise you to know that most of what you attribute to me does not.  Why do people like you assume that if someone states something that discomforts you that they must be wild-eyed communal hippies?  And how can anyone take your arguments seriously when it's so easy for you to jump to conclusions?  

My efforts involve trying to take a neutral and sincere stance in understanding the intent of authors of this amendment.  As you said, our founding fathers took an effort to document the foundations for our county.  I think those efforts should be honored and not be bent to satisfy the desires of a few individuals, no matter how vocal they are.  I believe that the authors of the Second Amendment did not waste a bunch of words trying to be flowery.  I think they chose their words for a reason.  So it needs to be broken down and understood.  To blindly claim that it must mean what you want makes no effort to uphold the Constitution.  

Upholding the Constitution means maintaining the efforts set forth and documented at the creation of this country throughout the dynamics of history.  If the dynamics make those efforts impractical, then we can talk about amending and revising; otherwise, it's got to stand as is.
For those that are having trouble of what the "intent" of the second was made for...

"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the people's liberty's teeth." - George Washington

"No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the State. Such are a well regulated Militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen, and husbandman; who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen." - James Madison

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson

Now, these are all factual quotes, look them up.

And from the men that formed this nation.

The second, IS an individual right, not just for hunting or sporting, but also for personal defence, defence of the nation/state from outside threat and most importantly, defence of the people from the government.  To think otherwise is just plain ignorant.
"Their are many children injured by guns each year. I'm talking 0-10 year olds getting ahold of a gun, or a child at a firing range who accidently shots his mom while trying to reload."

More children die in swimming pools then by guns, more children die from accidental poisioning from house hold cleaners then by guns, drastically more children die in car accidents then by guns.  So by your logic, we need to ban pools, cleaning products and cars as well.

Child death by firearm is 99% of the time, LACK OF EDUCATION.  My son @ 7 is safer with a firearm then most police officers.  He respects them and knows what they can do.

Im not even sure what to say abou the latter part of that comment other then a ton of "what if's" like that would lead to everyone living in their own personal plastic bubble... what if i get bird flue, what if i fall and hit my head, what if i get in a car accident... we can not protect EVERYONE, from EVERYTHING... most of all, you can not protect ANYONE from themselves.

"Most criminals get their guns by stealing them from good people"

again, criminals will ALWAYS get guns.  Look to the UK... they have a serious gun problem dispite a total ban...
Matt, there are those who ascribe to the ideas of "How to Make Friends and Influence People."  You're more like the poster boy for "How to Lose Allies and Alienate People."  Do you really think people are going to rally to you side with the battle cry of "Arm the people to threaten the government?"  Maybe those ideas were needed at the birth of our country, before a fair and well-formed government was in place, and before strong armed forces were developed; but if a group of armed citizens formed a "militia" so they could threaten the government, I doubt very seriously they'd be seen as patriots.  More likely they'd be seen as terrorists or traitors and charged with treason.  

This is why I said that the INTENT of the founding fathers must be MAINTAINED throughout the dynamics of history.  Over the past couple of centuries our country has grown, and we are no longer the loosely connected group of colonies we once were (this is part of the reason why the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor -- they didn't understand how much we had grown, and they thought that as a bunch of random colonies we'd run in fear if attacked, and that would keep us out of the war).  

Your arguments actually give more reasons FOR gun control than against it -- who wants to say that citizens should have guns so that the government can be threatened?  Does Oklahoma City ring a bell?  Please!  If you want to argue that people should have guns so they can defend themselves, their loved ones, or their property, or if you want to argue for leisure or hunting, that's one thing, but don't go arguing for the chance to threaten the government -- don't be giving any crazies any ideas either.  We've got enough problems with them already!
AH, i get it... Because i feel that it is absolutly an individual right, and the reasons that the right was put into the constitution, i get lumped in with some sort of radical terror group as opposed to someone that simply stated the facts and reasons for WHY the second was created.  

Did you read the entire post or simply the last paragraph and then form an opinion of me as some gun nut that lives in the woods in a compound storing food and has an "cache" of weapons and ammo?  Don't look now, but you just did to me what you accused others of doing to you.

Now, i don't believe that at any point, i said we need to "take up arms" or did I "threaten" anyone.  So don't you dare compare me to some sort of terroist simply because i feel that this nation is still one that should be free to those that have done it no harm.

I DID however state the very facts of what out founding fathers INTENDED.  So please spare me your argument.  

Personally, I do feel that it is absolutly an individual right.  And for me, it is to protect myself and family, a hobby, a sport and hunting.  And, if in the event that my nation needed defending, I would be prepared to defend her.

And for the record, i live in a city, a rather violent one at that, and I would not leave the safety of me or my loved ones up to the police.  

Oh, and fact checker.. Japan attacked because the US refused to lift the embargo on oil (of all things) and steel that Japan desprately needed for their war.  They attacked Pearl because (if it had gone as intended) would have crippled the US Navy in the Pacific for several months, however not all the ships were in port that they hoped and they failed to follow up the final attack.  
Matt, I never accused you of being a terrorist -- the thought never even entered my mind.  If you'll notice, I said, "Don't be GIVING any crazies any ideas," meaning the ideas would go from you to someone else.  I don't lump people into broad categories -- I think it's unfair and short-sighted.    

Also, there were several reasons why Pearl Harbor was bombed.  We may have touched on a couple of them, but that digresses from the concern of the article at hand, which is about the second amendment.  

I think there are some valid reasons why someone might own a gun, and I think there are some valid reasons why someone shouldn't.  Like anything else, it requires responsibility.  I think it's unfortunate that there tends to be an all-or-none attitude about these things.  I don't think the right to own a gun means the right to own military style weapons, and I don't think limiting the distributions of those weapons is an infringement on someone's rights because it should never be a right to begin with.  But there are those who will fight for the "right" to own military style weapons because they believe that if limits are placed on owning THOSE weapons, then limits could be placed on owning ANY weapon.  

But aside from those personal thoughts, I'm not convinced that the second amendment really states people have an all-out right to own guns.  It really reads to me more like a reliance on the people to protect individual States -- more like maintaining a type of military force; and I think those ideas are consistent with the quotes you provided.  So I suspect the second amendment doesn't say what either gun rights advocates or gun control advocates want it to say -- I think it's probably dated for the time and needs to be updated.  It'll be interesting to see what the Supreme Court comes up with, because it's not clear-cut and simple.

Sorry I got a little carried away in my writing to you.  I just can't stand the thought of anyone suggesting our country may need to be threatened.  However, I do think the quotes referring to "threatening the government" were referring to threatening other governments, not our own -- which is also why I think my interpretation that the second amendment was intended to provide defense of the States by arming the people is consistent with the quotes you provided.  
Thanks for that, it make more sense now ;)

Now, this "But there are those who will fight for the "right" to own military style weapons because they believe that if limits are placed on owning THOSE weapons, then limits could be placed on owning ANY weapon." is the best part of your post. for a couple of reasons.

1, if you look at the bill presented by one member of the Clinton family, (HR1022) you will see that she is looking to ban vertually every magazine fed rifle... this includes the most popular of them all... the ruger 10/22.  that fires a .22 cal round that is effective for putting holes in paper and small varmine... But, because it takes a mag, she wants it banned.

DO i personally see the need for a civilian to "need" a fully auto rifle... no, but that is just me.  I also don't see the "need" for someone to own a Hummer H2, but...

The problem with the clasification of "military style" weapons is far too many people have no idea what a real military weapon is.  or "assault weapon"... an assault weapon is a select fire weapon that can fire in the semi or full auto mode, or 3 round burst in some cases.  However, many would class the AR-15 an assault weapon... it is not.  It fires 1 round, with 1 pull of the trigger.  and it fires a .223 cal round (5.56)  Many, many hunting rifles fire this same round, and all in all, the .223 is really small when it comes to hunting rifle rounds.

I can fire my scoped hunting rifle as fast and more accurately then my AR15... yet people see the name ar-15 and fear comes up.  AK is another one, you can take a semi auto ak, change the stock and barrel and now you have a nice hunting rifle... yet it doesnt "look" scary.

2. Groups like the Brady camp, want to restirct handguns, mag sizes and the like... they all started this because of Brady being shot... with a .22 revolver.  So no restriction will prevent that, unless you make all handguns muzzle loaders again.

Mag restrictions are pointless, someone that trains often with their firearms can drop a mag and load a new one in 1 second.  Mag restrictions are another "feel good" law that hurt law abiding citizens and help the criminals... criminals dont follow mag restriction laws.

as far as full autos, i have nothing against them, just dont personally want one, but dont think that someone that has no criminal background, passes the extensive checks that the gov has set for shouldn't have one.
Yeah, I think we pretty much agree, Matt.  I don't know much about guns because I've never had an interest in owning one (even though I'm originally from Texas), but I can understand why some people would want to own one.  The key is to handle these things responsibly, whatever that means.  Even though I don't think the second amendment was written for the sake of guaranteeing each citizen's right to own a gun, it certainly doesn't disqualify the right; and maybe we need a revision of the second amendment so that we can clarify what responsible gun ownership is and what citizen-appropriate fire arms are.  But then again, if an attempt is made to update the second amendment, I'm pretty sure it'll get ugly since passions run pretty deep on both sides of this issue.  I was hoping that analyzing the intent would ameliorate the situation, but it doesn't look like it would help much since history has changed so much.  Recognizing the Founders supported gun ownership does help, however.  Let's see where the powers-that-be take things from there.

I know this wouldn't probably happen but if it ever did, I want to be able to take up arms and defend my family and anyone in my company if there were ever an invasion on our country would take my right away and others who deserve that right to live and be happy.


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